Kategoriarkiv: Q Nordic

Q-L804 – Current status 2016-01-29

by Jakob Norstedt, admin Q Nordic project
E-mail: jakob@hoijen.se

Q-L804 is one of the two subclades forming the Q Nordic project (the other is Q-L527).

This is Q-L804’s position in relation to it’s neighbors:

Q-L804 and it's neighbor clades with time estimates from Yfull for branching. ybp = Years before present

Q-L804 and it’s neighbor clades with time estimates from Yfull for branching. ybp = Years before present

Q-L804 is very independant. It’s closest neighbor clade is Q-M3 but their most recent common ancestor lived about 15,000 years ago. Q-M3’s members have Native American ancestry.

Just a little further away is the Q-Z780 subclade which also has members of Native American ancestry. The Anzick-1 boy buried in Montana, USA, 12,600 years ago and found in 1968 belonged to Q-Z780.

As far as we know now (data from Yfull), contemporary members of Q-M3 have an origin in countries like Peru, Colombia and Mexico and contemporary subclades of Q-Z780 are found in Mexico.

Branches of Q-L804

A total of 23 BigY samples have revealed a basic structure of Q-L804. So far we know three main branches:

Q-L804 and it's three branches

Q-L804 and it’s three branches

The branches all have a common ancestor who lived about 3100 years ago. There are about the same number of kits in each branch.

Distribution of the three branches

The known ancestors of the tested kits indicate different histories of the branches.

The three Q-L804 branches. Origin of BigY kits with known ancestry.

The three Q-L804 branches. Origin of BigY kits with known ancestry.

Q-JN15 Western Scandinavia

The branch defined by the SNP JN15 has members with ancestry from western Norway, Iceland, Britain, and France.

The Western Scandinavia branch of Q-L804.

The Western Scandinavia branch of Q-L804.

It seems reasonable to think that the diversity of nationalities reflects an expansion from Norway by Vikings and/or Normans. The Icelandic kit splits from the others a little later and has it’s genetically closest cousin in Geiranger, Møre og Romsdal, Norway.

The distance Geiranger - Iceland is about 1200 km

The distance Geiranger – Iceland is about 1200 km

Q-BY386 Britain

The British branch, defined by the SNP BY386, has kits from England and Scotland. In this branch there are also kits from USA with unknown but supposed British origin.

The British branch of Q-L804.

The British branch of Q-L804.

MacSwain, the Scottish kit at the far right of the chart, is the first to split from the others. Three tested kits with the surname Pearson is a part of this subclade. They are not yet fully analyzed at Yfull.

Q-BY469 Easter Scandinavia

The branch defined by the SNP BY469 has most of it’s members in Sweden.

The Eastern Scandinavia branch of Q-L804.

The Eastern Scandinavia branch of Q-L804.

There is also a kit with German ancestry (surname Frum) and a kit from Hedmark in Norway close to the Swedish border.

Link to the Q Nordic project

Link to Q-L804 at Yfull

Link to Q Nordic at Yseq

Link to overview for print (PDF)


French Q-L804 subclade – trace of Normans?

The Scandinavian haplogroup Q-L804 has been expanded with a branch from Norway to the North Western France, close to Normandy. This happend when the BigY results for a kit with French origin came in last week. The results make it possible to believe that the new French kit has a Norman origin.


The Norwegian kits which are close to the French have their oldest known ancestors in Møre og Romsdal and Nord-Trøndelag in the 18th – 19th century while the French has it’s origin in Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, in the 17th century.

The current Yfull TMRCA indicates that they have a common ancestor about 1600 years before present which means that the migration should have occured in the centuries after the 5th century, with very wide margins. The Normands occupied what’s now Normandy in the beginning of the 10th century. The new French result is not yet included in the Yfull time estimate.

The current Q-L804 overview.

Q Nordic project

Q-L804 at Yfull


Fransk gren av Q-L804 – spår av normander?

Den skandinaviska haplogruppen Q-L804 har nu en gren från Norge till trakten av Normandie. Förgreningen från de norska “kusinerna” gör det möjligt att tro att det franska kitet har ett ursprung i norska normander.


De norska resultaten har äldsta kända anor i Møre og Romsdal och Nord-Trøndelag på 1700-1800-talet och det franska har sin äldsta kända ana i Mayenne, Pays de la Loire, på 1600-talet (Trotry de la Touche).

Enligt Yfulls hittillsvarande uppskattning (där det franska resultatet ännu inte finns med) har de en gemensam ana som ligger c:a 1600 år tillbaka vilket innebär att förgreningen bör ha skett under århundradena efter 400-talet. Normanderna ockuperade nuvarande landskapet Normandie i början av 900-talet.

Här finns den senaste översikten över Q-L804.

Q Nordic-projektet

Q-L804 hos Yfull


L807 has joined the Q-L804 tree

L807, the Pearson SNP, has been known to be after L804, i.e. a subclade of Q-L804.

Yesterday the first Pearson BigY arrived letting us know that L807 fits the English branch, to the left in the overview. Yfull analysis will confirm the position.

2015-04-30 Q-L804


Jakob Norstedt, Admin Q Nordic project
E-mail: jakob@hoijen.se

Q Nordic project: http://www.familytreedna.com/groups/qnordic

Q-L804, current status of one of the Q Nordic subclades

Q-L804 is one of the two subclades of Q considered Nordic (the other is Q-L527). It is special because it’s sibling subclade is the Q-M3 originating in the Americas.

2015-04-18 M930

The common origin is Q-M930; the two subclades have a most recent common ancestor (MRCA) about 15,000 years ago.

There is an unbroken sequence of SNPs on this Q Nordic branch from 15,000 ybp (years before present) to 3,000 ybp. Not one single split. Branches may very well exist but they have not yet been found.

11 BigY kits

So far 11 BigY kits have been gathered from the Q-L804 subclade. All but two have been deeper analyzed by the Yfull service.

These are the current branches of the Q-L804 subclade:

2015-04-26 Q-L804

The presented ages of the subclades are the SNP based estimations made by Yfull.com, published in their experimental tree (v.3.8), slightly rounded in some cases.

The Pearson kit (far left) is still waiting for it’s BigY. Pearson is known to belong to the L807+ subclade of L804 so it will be interesting to see where the Pearson branch joins the other L804 branches.

Origin of L804

So where was the origin of the mutation L804? Mapping the origins of the ancestors might give a clue.

2015-04-18 L804 map

The map shows the locations for the most distant ancestor (MDA) for each BigY sample, with the corresponding terminal SNP.

It is indeed possible to draw two curves on the map which in a  reasonable way may show how the migration could av taken place. They are in no way intended to tell the truth, just to demonstrate a scenario not unlikely to have happend.

According to this map, the L804 might have an origin at the Atlantic coast of central Norway. From there it might have spread to central and northern Sweden and to Scotland and England.

SNP testing suggestions


The subclade is best explored by having as many individuals testing BigY as possible. Ordering a BigY will give not only known SNPs but novels that can be matched with other kits to form new branches.

If you want to pinpoint your exact position in the tree and contribute to its expansion with new branches and twigs you should order BigY.

Single SNP testing

An alternative to BigY is to order tests of single SNPs. You won’t explore any new branches by this but it will give a rough idea of where you belong.

Some of the SNPs are available for testing at FTDNA (marked *). Others are available at Yseq.net (marked **).

2015-04-26 L804 SNP testing

All branches of L804 can be tested. There seems to be a geographical pattern which might be used as a start for selecting the right SNP to test.

So far this is valid as a first step if it is likely that you belong to the L804 subclade:

  • Test BY386 if your paternal origin is British.
  • Test BY460 if your paternal origin is central Sweden or eastern Norway.
  • Test JN13 (Yseq.net) if your paternal origin is the Norwegian Atlantic coast
  • Test Y10787 (yseq.net) if your paternal origin is northern Sweden (Ångermanland, Västerbotten)

A SNP test can deliver either a positive or a negative result, both giving experience and a deeper knowledge. So don’t be too disappointed if the test doesn’t turn out the way you expected. It will still be very interesting for the project and it will help in deciding which SNP you should try next.

Jakob Norstedt, Admin Q Nordic project
E-mail: jakob@hoijen.se

Q Nordic project: http://www.familytreedna.com/groups/qnordic